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Has Mandela crossed that boundary on occasion that you just marked out there?I’d have to think about that. I can’t remember the occasion but I suspect there was a time when I thought now he’s wrong. I can’t remember the time. But there must have been instances where he did cross the barrier.I want to gauge your response to a couple of incidents when Mandela made waves, mainly in particular the Rugby World Cup … when he turned up wearing Francois Pienaar’s jersey …… I’m not a rugby fan, so I wasn’t watching, but somebody told me about it or I saw it subsequently on a news broadcast. And I thought, well, what can I say? At a time when the leader of the country needed to be embracing black people, and putting his heart out to black people for all they’d been through, here he was doing this — in a game which was closed to the black community, first of all, and which very few black people supported.But then I thought well, here’s this old man … he’d do a thing like that. It didn’t surprise me. It didn’t shock me. I felt that, again, we are doing something that is sending the wrong signal to both white and black people, but it was done, and there was nothing more one could do or say about it. I had hoped that what would subsequently happen is to see some kind of reciprocation from the white community, and it just reinforced my belief and my analysis that rather than have it reciprocated, he eventually gets taken to court, and is forced to be subjected to the most harshest examination. Now, those two things just in my mind are so inconceivable, so mutually exclusive, the man bends over backwards to reconcile. Not just with the sport, but the people who love the sport, who are primarily white, and those same people then take him and place him in a court and subject him to cross examination over the same issue of rugby. I just think well, there they go. Slapping him in the face again. I wonder if he is going to learn a lesson from it.You say you are not a rugby man, but … you are a political man … the Springbok rugby team, the Springbok jersey–these were symbols of apartheid repression …Absolutely.And there was Mandela wearing that jersey.… if you want to know about the political aspect of it, I think Nelson simply demonstrated how he was caught in a time warp. Even though he was released from Robben Island, he was still living in the ’50s. It was a slap in the face for black people in terms of a political statement, that you take something like the Springbok emblem, and the Springbok rugby jersey on top of that, wear it, and black people must have felt appalled that this could be done. Politically, I think it was the worst thing that he could have done, in terms of representing black people. From the point of view of what everybody is now calling the rainbow nation, I suppose, ja. You know, who’s in the rainbow nation? What have we got, about 13% whites and add another five or six percent black people into that, and that’s your rainbow nation. Because at least 80% of people in this country don’t know the meaning of the word rainbow, because they’re still struggling to survive–living in poverty, homeless, jobless.